Curse

Esprit · Oct 13, 2009, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Flubber, what you posted is rude and adds no value whatsoever to this thread. If you want to make disrespectful jibes that are not related to the topic, send me a PM instead of posting them in this thread in a lack-luster attempt to show how witty your are to this game community.

I would value your opinion slightly more if you posted your thoughts on my post rather than link to a video.

Just saying.

Zahr Dalsk · Oct 13, 2009, 12:07 AM // 00:07

ProTip: what your law class told you is irrelevant.

If ArenaNet decides something is against the EULA and decides to do something about it, they can and will.

Karate Jesus · Oct 13, 2009, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esprit

Flubber, what you posted is rude and adds no value whatsoever to this thread. If you want to make disrespectful jibes that are not related to the topic, send me a PM instead of posting them in this thread in a lack-luster attempt to show how witty your are to this game community.

I would value your opinion slightly more if you posted your thoughts on my post rather than link to a video.

Just saying.

Flubber hasn't done much in the thread besides make vehement remarks against people's character and HB in general.

If you're upset about HB, that's one thing. But coming here and disrespecting people is another.

gone · Oct 13, 2009, 12:16 AM // 00:16

the truth hurts. always.

Martin Alvito · Oct 13, 2009, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

What are the differences with wintersday when the community makes an agreement by splitting up Dwayna and Grenth districts? I see the same characteristics:
- reward
- efficiency
- not playing the game as intended

The difference is the lack of an externality. The trouble is that when the community creates a rule for organizing LA/Kamadan during Wintersday, there are no losers. All players present are positively impacted; no players absent are negatively impacted. RR is different, because the players that don't play RR lose ground in the economy to those that do RR.

Wintersday is an example where simple communication can avoid coordination failure. The Dwayna and Grenth people self-segregating is similar to people agreeing to drive on one side of the road or the other. Both sides are made better off if they avoid colliding with one another in the same district, so creating a simple rule that everyone understands resolves the risk of not getting the hat you want. The rule itself doesn't matter. It doesn't matter whether Dwayna districts are odd or even, just that there are known Dwayna and Grenth districts.

For grinders, PvP is like a Prisoner's Dilemma. Both grinders are better off if they can agree to some quick means of resolving the match, but both want to avoid getting suckered and conceding the match without receiving some sort of payoff for doing so. The RR rule is a way of getting around this problem. If all grinders agree to RR, then it becomes rational to concede this match with the expectation of getting a match someone else will concede to you.

The difference is that on RR day, what the RR players do affects others. The players that participate benefit, and the players that don't participate lose. Wealth is relative in an environment like GW. When currency is being dumped into the system through a glitch/exploit, this creates winners AND losers. Since the amount of shinies you can buy is finite (and usually doesn't vary as a result of the exploit), players that don't take advantage of the exploit become poorer.

People get upset when there's a widespread, profitable activity that's against the rules because it presents an uncomfortable choice. Either you join the herd and accept some risk of getting banned to keep up with the Joneses, or you sit on the sidelines and accept being left behind unless ANet whips out the ban stick. Nobody wants to get banned, and nobody really wants to be put in the position of cheerleading for mass bans either.

Long story short - in a virtual economy, everything is interconnected and what other people does affects you. If you can't see that, maybe you should take a look around and see how what others do affects you. Then maybe you can see how what you do affects others.

dr love · Oct 13, 2009, 03:04 AM // 03:04

RR is reallllllly smacking up the in game economy. I put in a few hours every week doing it, but to be honest, I feel like I'm getting poorer. Prices of everything are going up, except zkeys.

DreamWind · Oct 13, 2009, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilDeath

Well, many people have covered it already, but ANet is pretty much solely to blame for the whole HB situation at the moment.

Well you are correct, but I think you understated the problem. Anet is solely to blame for every single problem in their game. HB is just the tip of the iceberg.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilDeath

What can they do?

Nothing. They already opened the can of worms and there is no going back. Titles are obviously the problem. The exact moment they were introduced was the exact moment the majority of the community was turned into title farmers and the game changed forever. When your game becomes all about farming, your game becomes nothing but a bottomfeeding abusive exploitfest, where the best abusers are the most successful players. Thank you for titles Anet. You may now remove entire formats from the game instead of the core problem.

Winstar · Oct 13, 2009, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbulger

RR is reallllllly smacking up the in game economy. I put in a few hours every week doing it, but to be honest, I feel like I'm getting poorer. Prices of everything are going up, except zkeys.

I'm sure the causal link between the two events has been rigorously determined right?

What precedent has anet set for such cases in the past? It would be reasonable to follow such precedent and I think its reasonable to think that is what they will do again.

Who knows though, maybe anet won't disappoint the frothing witch hunters looking for bannings. I'm still not sure why they want this or think its a reasonable response after god knows how many pages...

FoxBat · Oct 13, 2009, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

The difference is that on RR day, what the RR players do affects others. The players that participate benefit, and the players that don't participate lose.

People who play along with D/G districts get the mask they want. People who don't will not. Anyone that wanted to actually have an exciting close "battle" is screwed.

While there is a difference in magnitude of economic effect with one-shot customized masks vs tradeable plat+zkeys, and actually playing HB is (probably) more enjoyable than DvG trying to out-luck each other, the basic principles are really the same.

Martin Alvito · Oct 13, 2009, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Anyone that wanted to actually have an exciting close "battle" is screwed.

But how many of these people exist?

We could make the same argument you put forward about driving on one side of the road or the other. 99.9% or so of people would prefer to take the risk of getting killed out of driving, and the other 0.1% are like Heath Ledger's Joker and would love to see the carnage, irrespective of the risk of death.

Hate to say it, but the number of people that care about having a close "battle" is very small. If it weren't, we'd have three types of district on Wintersday (Dwayna, Grenth, Fight) instead of two.

As long as you're aware of the well-publicized rule (community forums established it and people will yell at you in local if you violate it), you only lose under the existing rule if you want to see half of your district upset at the end of the event. If that's the case, as far as I'm concerned you can take your griefing elsewhere.

Zahr Dalsk · Oct 13, 2009, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Anyone that wanted to actually have an exciting close "battle" is screwed.

Go play some PvP?

Racthoh · Oct 13, 2009, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Titles are obviously the problem.

The money and, to a lesser extent, the impossible to max PvP titles I agree are a problem. Skill capturing, vanquishing and the like, sure they're tedious but at least achieving those titles actually feels like you're playing a game.

tmakinen · Oct 13, 2009, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Make the game engine always show your own team as blue and the enemy team as red, problem solved. I don't know if it's just me but changing team colors randomly between matches really hampers my ability to stay on top of the tactical situation as seen on the radar.

Martin Alvito · Oct 13, 2009, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Make the game engine always show your own team as blue and the enemy team as red, problem solved.

/rock
/paper
/scissors

The problems are more fundamental than you realize. If players can find a quick, reliable mechanism to resolve these matches...they will. Why? Because they have strong (farming) incentives to do so.

tmakinen · Oct 13, 2009, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

The problems are more fundamental than you realize.

Um, that was uncalled for. I analyze and model systems for living.

I only addressed the particular exploit because that was specifically discussed in this thread. There was an implicit assumption that other loopholes would be similarly closed. Specifically, the game must not provide a way to create random objective asymmetry. Thus

the map must be symmetric
team colors must be subjective (everybody sees the enemy as red)
emotes must be disabled
local channel must be disabled
private channel to members of opposite team must be disabled

These from the top of my head, it's not rocket science. If you want to be really sure about it, disable resigning and map traveling as well, and treat logging out as a disconnect while the game is on so that both sides are tied to the instance for the duration of the match.

Akaraxle · Oct 13, 2009, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Um, that was uncalled for. I analyze and model systems for living.

I only addressed the particular exploit because that was specifically discussed in this thread. There was an implicit assumption that other loopholes would be similarly closed. Specifically, the game must not provide a way to create random objective asymmetry. Thus

the map must be symmetric
team colors must be subjective (everybody sees the enemy as red)
emotes must be disabled
local channel must be disabled
private channel to members of opposite team must be disabled

These from the top of my head, it's not rocket science. If you want to be really sure about it, disable resigning and map traveling as well, and treat logging out as a disconnect while the game is on so that both sides are tied to the instance for the duration of the match.

Good analysis, I never thought of it this way. PvP like this, although not completely impervious to manipulation (nothing ever is), would certainly have saved ANet and us a lot of headaches.

P.S. flubber ownz.

Reflect · Oct 13, 2009, 09:34 AM // 09:34

..Eeasiest to do is make Zaishen Combats unrepeatable, doable once per acc.

Taddayo Kun · Oct 13, 2009, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Um, that was uncalled for. I analyze and model systems for living.

I only addressed the particular exploit because that was specifically discussed in this thread. There was an implicit assumption that other loopholes would be similarly closed. Specifically, the game must not provide a way to create random objective asymmetry. Thus

the map must be symmetric
team colors must be subjective (everybody sees the enemy as red)
emotes must be disabled
local channel must be disabled
private channel to members of opposite team must be disabled

These from the top of my head, it's not rocket science. If you want to be really sure about it, disable resigning and map traveling as well, and treat logging out as a disconnect while the game is on so that both sides are tied to the instance for the duration of the match.

There really is no need for any complex measures such as these. All that would need to be done to stop rr is to remove HB from the z combat rotation.

I think people misunderstand the reason for red resign since many people are stating that pvp titles are too difficult. I doubt there are many people playing RR (excuse me, 'playing'

) for commander points or even for the increased balth caps, these are simply an added bonus. The z combat (and subsequent zkeys) , I'm sure everyone would agree, is both the reason rr day is so popular and the reason so many people are against it.

Since the Zaishen title is not strictly a pvp title (since it is possible to gain points without doing any pvp at all) I believe it's incorrect to blame pvp titles altogether for this problem. Please don't misunderstand, I am in no way saying that pvp titles don't need to be addressed, nor am I saying that they do not. I'm simply being objective in this debate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

The difference is that on RR day, what the RR players do affects others. The players that participate benefit, and the players that don't participate lose. Wealth is relative in an environment like GW. When currency is being dumped into the system through a glitch/exploit, this creates winners AND losers. Since the amount of shinies you can buy is finite (and usually doesn't vary as a result of the exploit), players that don't take advantage of the exploit become poorer.

I would also like to point out what I believe to be a fatal flaw in this argument. As you have mentioned, wealth is indeed relative in guild wars, particularly with such a strong supply and demand economy. My first point is that the amount of valuable items in the game are, for the most part, INfinate. No matter how rare some of the items are, they can be obtained endlessly. The only items in this game that are truely finite are limited edition items, such as one time only minipets. Back to the point of relative wealth, if a sudden influx of cash appears in the economy, it is rarely impacted for very long unless this extra cash is sustainable. Since zaishen keys are mostly sold to players who intend to use them and will rarely get anything that they could sell on. Therefore they will lose out in the monetary sense in favour of gaining title points. The only way I see this having a real effect on the econmy is the influx of zaishen keys were to last for any considerable amount of time, which as we know, it will not. For these reasons I believe that this will not make anybody poorer, but may in fact make some people who have high end items able to sell their items at a premium since many of those who participated in rr would have extra cash from selling their zkeys, supply and demand at work once again.

Although red resign has been around for months, the impact has only been seen these last 2 or 3 times. This pales in comparison to the difference the xunlai tournement house made to the economy for the vast length of it's duration.

The main thing to take away from this is that once HB is removed (or the z combat for hb is removed) it will not take long for the economy to stabilise and before long, the issue will be forgotten by the vast majority, regardless of which side of the argument they were on.

Taddayo Kun · Oct 13, 2009, 02:27 PM // 14:27

holy crap, I didn't realise I typed so much! Sorry folks, case of diarrhea of the fingers i suppose...

Space · Oct 13, 2009, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reflect

..Eeasiest to do is make Zaishen Combats unrepeatable, doable once per acc.

Or just remove HB zquest from the rotation / remove the BF reward.